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	<title>Comments on: Lifting water</title>
	<link>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427</link>
	<description>Always on the move</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: teashook</title>
		<link>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3807</link>
		<dc:creator>teashook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3807</guid>
		<description>Yep, I left off three zeros.
Thanks, feel free to fix the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, I left off three zeros.<br />
Thanks, feel free to fix the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3801</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 02:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3801</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments, skeptic.

The examples you give from CA, FL, etc., are quite enlightening.

Water is generally what is referred to as a "Common Pool Resource." With the exception of "bottled," water isn't a commodity that can be packaged and sold. Market solutions alone don't constitute an adequate solution for distribution because. Water just doesn't have the characteristics of a normal commodity.

Sometimes I say "NIMBY" when I really mean "BANANA" -- "Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything." NIMBYism has kept plenty of good developments from happening, too. In fact, it's my understanding that NIMBYism kept the Corps of Engineers from developing a new source of water for Lake Lanier.

The Mid-Manhattan expressway, by the way, died as a result of being caught in the crossfire of what was essentially a war between Robert Moses and Jerry Finkelstein. Moses insisted on building the expressway above ground. The Board of Estimate had directed the Triborough Authority to study all proposals. Finkelstein has a proposal to build the expressway below ground. When the mayor gave permission for a study of Finkelstein's proposal, Moses decided he was no longer willing to build any mid-Manhattan crossing at all. Moses killed that proposal himself, not NIMBYism.

It also wasn't NIMBYism that caused the Brooklyn-Battery bridge to became a tunnel.

The lower-Manhattan expressway is a different story. People fought that not because it would ruin their backyard, so to speak. It was opposed because, like the Cross-Bronx Expressway, the residents would get evicted out of their homes. Personally, I don't think that opposition to the Manhattan expressways was NIMBYism.

The point of all that is whatever you think of me crying NIMBY, crying "intellectual laziness" is also a bit intellectually lazy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments, skeptic.</p>
<p>The examples you give from CA, FL, etc., are quite enlightening.</p>
<p>Water is generally what is referred to as a &#8220;Common Pool Resource.&#8221; With the exception of &#8220;bottled,&#8221; water isn&#8217;t a commodity that can be packaged and sold. Market solutions alone don&#8217;t constitute an adequate solution for distribution because. Water just doesn&#8217;t have the characteristics of a normal commodity.</p>
<p>Sometimes I say &#8220;NIMBY&#8221; when I really mean &#8220;BANANA&#8221; &#8212; &#8220;Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything.&#8221; NIMBYism has kept plenty of good developments from happening, too. In fact, it&#8217;s my understanding that NIMBYism kept the Corps of Engineers from developing a new source of water for Lake Lanier.</p>
<p>The Mid-Manhattan expressway, by the way, died as a result of being caught in the crossfire of what was essentially a war between Robert Moses and Jerry Finkelstein. Moses insisted on building the expressway above ground. The Board of Estimate had directed the Triborough Authority to study all proposals. Finkelstein has a proposal to build the expressway below ground. When the mayor gave permission for a study of Finkelstein&#8217;s proposal, Moses decided he was no longer willing to build any mid-Manhattan crossing at all. Moses killed that proposal himself, not NIMBYism.</p>
<p>It also wasn&#8217;t NIMBYism that caused the Brooklyn-Battery bridge to became a tunnel.</p>
<p>The lower-Manhattan expressway is a different story. People fought that not because it would ruin their backyard, so to speak. It was opposed because, like the Cross-Bronx Expressway, the residents would get evicted out of their homes. Personally, I don&#8217;t think that opposition to the Manhattan expressways was NIMBYism.</p>
<p>The point of all that is whatever you think of me crying NIMBY, crying &#8220;intellectual laziness&#8221; is also a bit intellectually lazy.</p>
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		<title>By: desalination skeptic</title>
		<link>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3787</link>
		<dc:creator>desalination skeptic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3787</guid>
		<description>Don't claim to be "well informed" but:
Atlanta might take note of the lesson of Santa Barbara, Cal. which gets all of its water from a small coastal basin, ringed by mountains.  During the drought of the early 90's, they spent a lot of money for a reverse osmosis state-of-the-art desalination plant.  By the time they got it built their mountain reservoirs had refilled.  So they have never used it but keep it maintained "just in case".  Likewise for Key West, FL.  Built the plant and found it cheaper to pipe water in 125 miles from the mainland.  There is an enormouse amount of hype about desalination world wide at the moment and a lot of cities are going to waste a lot of money.  And a lot of engineering companies are going to make a fortune.  Look at Tampa where the largest desal plant ever (i think) is still "not quite" running after years of delay and multiple bankruptcies and enormous amount of debt acquired -- and after all this the water is far more expensive than what the engineers predicted and -- worse -- more expensive than what can be obtained on the market.  And it will get more expensive as the cost of energy goes up and worse a couple of years of now when the plant has to begin replacment cycles for the RO filters (invest in Dupont).  

The only short-term answer is conservation and recycling for re-use, imo.  But there is a long term solution too:  Unfortunately, it won't happen but if water could be treated as a commodity that can be bought and sold at a free market price, there will be no shortage and the price will be really low.  The politics of it is impossible of course.  In some river basins (for example the Rio Grande below &#38; not including El Paso because you can't shift water upstream and New Mexico doesn't release water to Texas) there is a market where water rights can be bought and sold and the reallocation that is accomplished is smooth and easy.  In times of great drought, the price goes up somewhat but not much as marginal users find they can sell their water for more profit than their alternative use would yield.

Texas has very recently built a couple of desalination plants but entirely with funny money.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the operating costs.  My prediction: Eventually some city manager is going to realize he can  solve a budget crisis by shutting his RO plant down.  Probably about the time the operating costs spike when they reach the first filter replacement cycle.

One other thing Joe.  NIMBYism saved Manhatten from destruction by freeways.  There other examples.  Point is: people really do know their back yard best.  Meet their arguments head on.  Yelling NIMBY is intellectually lazy, imo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t claim to be &#8220;well informed&#8221; but:<br />
Atlanta might take note of the lesson of Santa Barbara, Cal. which gets all of its water from a small coastal basin, ringed by mountains.  During the drought of the early 90&#8217;s, they spent a lot of money for a reverse osmosis state-of-the-art desalination plant.  By the time they got it built their mountain reservoirs had refilled.  So they have never used it but keep it maintained &#8220;just in case&#8221;.  Likewise for Key West, FL.  Built the plant and found it cheaper to pipe water in 125 miles from the mainland.  There is an enormouse amount of hype about desalination world wide at the moment and a lot of cities are going to waste a lot of money.  And a lot of engineering companies are going to make a fortune.  Look at Tampa where the largest desal plant ever (i think) is still &#8220;not quite&#8221; running after years of delay and multiple bankruptcies and enormous amount of debt acquired &#8212; and after all this the water is far more expensive than what the engineers predicted and &#8212; worse &#8212; more expensive than what can be obtained on the market.  And it will get more expensive as the cost of energy goes up and worse a couple of years of now when the plant has to begin replacment cycles for the RO filters (invest in Dupont).  </p>
<p>The only short-term answer is conservation and recycling for re-use, imo.  But there is a long term solution too:  Unfortunately, it won&#8217;t happen but if water could be treated as a commodity that can be bought and sold at a free market price, there will be no shortage and the price will be really low.  The politics of it is impossible of course.  In some river basins (for example the Rio Grande below &amp; not including El Paso because you can&#8217;t shift water upstream and New Mexico doesn&#8217;t release water to Texas) there is a market where water rights can be bought and sold and the reallocation that is accomplished is smooth and easy.  In times of great drought, the price goes up somewhat but not much as marginal users find they can sell their water for more profit than their alternative use would yield.</p>
<p>Texas has very recently built a couple of desalination plants but entirely with funny money.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the operating costs.  My prediction: Eventually some city manager is going to realize he can  solve a budget crisis by shutting his RO plant down.  Probably about the time the operating costs spike when they reach the first filter replacement cycle.</p>
<p>One other thing Joe.  NIMBYism saved Manhatten from destruction by freeways.  There other examples.  Point is: people really do know their back yard best.  Meet their arguments head on.  Yelling NIMBY is intellectually lazy, imo.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3784</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3784</guid>
		<description>I think that's supposed to be 66 million gallons, not 66 thousand :)

But still, 17% of the needs of 1.5 million people, from the world's largest desalination plant powered by renewable energy. That would translate to a very expensive drop in Atlanta's thirsty bucket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s supposed to be 66 million gallons, not 66 thousand <img src='http://www.joeventures.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But still, 17% of the needs of 1.5 million people, from the world&#8217;s largest desalination plant powered by renewable energy. That would translate to a very expensive drop in Atlanta&#8217;s thirsty bucket.</p>
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		<title>By: teashook</title>
		<link>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3782</link>
		<dc:creator>teashook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.joeventures.com/archives/427#comment-3782</guid>
		<description>I'm no scientist and not even that good at math but there is no way this is feasible for Atlanta. Take a look at Perth's plant and see if the Atlanta idea even seems within the realm of reason. http://www.water-technology.net/projects/perth/
Once expanded, the Perth plant will generate about 66,000 gallons a day. We remove 1,000,000,000 gallons from Lake Lanier a day. The plant constuction costs were $342,000,000 in U.S. figures, and at only 1 year old it is costing $18,000,000 to maintain. Consider that this is the largest desal plant in the world powered by renewal energy. It can only supply 17% of the needs of the City of Perth, which has 1,500,000 people, roughly 1/3 of metro Atlanta's population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m no scientist and not even that good at math but there is no way this is feasible for Atlanta. Take a look at Perth&#8217;s plant and see if the Atlanta idea even seems within the realm of reason. <a href="http://www.water-technology.net/projects/perth/" rel="nofollow">http://www.water-technology.net/projects/perth/</a><br />
Once expanded, the Perth plant will generate about 66,000 gallons a day. We remove 1,000,000,000 gallons from Lake Lanier a day. The plant constuction costs were $342,000,000 in U.S. figures, and at only 1 year old it is costing $18,000,000 to maintain. Consider that this is the largest desal plant in the world powered by renewal energy. It can only supply 17% of the needs of the City of Perth, which has 1,500,000 people, roughly 1/3 of metro Atlanta&#8217;s population.</p>
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